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Welcome to the Village pump

This page is used for discussions of the operations, technical issues, and policies of Wikimedia Commons. Recent sections with no replies for 7 days and sections tagged with {{section resolved|1=--~~~~}} may be archived; for old discussions, see the archives.

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Turkey Beypazarı district Hırkatepe Village pump. [add]
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Contents


April 23[edit]

Anthroponym cats with unclear onomastics[edit]

There are >200 thousand subcats under Category:Uses of Wikidata Infobox with no family name. Anyone taking care of this? -- Tuválkin 19:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

  • I put some thoughts on bot-adding family names to Wikidata at [1]. I haven't had chance to look into that further yet, though. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:19, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Unimpressive, sorry. Short-sighted regex juggling of incomplete data might be a nice addition to one’s coder portfolio, but it’s not the way to get actual content added. (Aint it “funny” how the supressing of wikitext because it enthrones geeks at the supposed expense of regular users ends up lionizing whoever can fiddle with data through a backport, bypassing a gamified, dumbed-down UI? The Wikidata way is spearheading that wedge between low-caste casual contributers and code gods, salting the middle grown whence the whole ecosystem of Wikimedia project grew! But I digress:) The way to have data added to Wikidata is, ironically and as usual, syphon it off from Commons whenever there’s any data to do so, usually mangling it on the way and locking the door for its further improvement (as it has been done with geolocation data for categories). -- Tuválkin 10:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Tuvalkin: I'm not trying to put together a coder portfolio or to demonstrate my (very limited) knowledge of regex. I'm trying to use the structured data format that Wikidata provides, and my (also limited!) knowledge of Python and pywikibot, to consolidate the information that has already been contributed to the Wikimedia projects so that editors don't have to repeat an edit that's already been made, in the hope that they can spend their time on contributing new information instead. Category:Uses of Wikidata Infobox with no family name tracks cases where the family name isn't set on Wikidata, which means that {{Wikidata Infobox}} can't provide an automatic DEFAULTSORT or add the category to the family name categories. However, that information is probably already available here through manually-defined DEFAULTSORTs and categories, but not in a format that can be used by the infobox here (or other infoboxes on other projects). Hence my why I'm trying to think of ways to use code to add that information to (and then extract it from) the structured database, so that we can focus on manually sorting out the more difficult cases. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 00:46, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Well then, soon there will be a lot of new data ready for the harvest. -- Tuválkin 00:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Or we could collaborate on ways to add (or encourage others to add) information once, and to then use that information more widely? You can clearly think through the ways that the data can be organised, could we either work together to do that, or avoid disparaging each others' work? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 01:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Ah, collaborate: That’s what I (try to) do everyday here. Usually not by discussing would-bes and could-bes (as often done here) but by creating stuff others can build on (example) and/or adding my work to efforts initiated by others (example: any of so many things created by ). In the case at hand, it is needed some general knowledge about Onomastics worldwide and/or willingness to research it (got any? — add below). As for disparaging Wikidata and Structured Data in Commons, well, unless their underlying phylosophy changes radically, you can count on me for that also. -- Tuválkin 23:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The bot was approved on Wikidata and is now running through the basic cases (label minus given name == family name) to add the family name property. Category:Uses of Wikidata Infobox with no family name is down from 232k entries by circa 2k entries, with many more to come. There was a bug with "Saint" that has now been resolved. Please let me know if the bot causes any problems, or if it is missing something, and I'll look into it. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 00:30, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Coming August, if nobody does it sooner, I’ll be working on a new categorizing template that accepts as parameters each of a name’s constituent words and a flag to determine how they should be shuffled around for presentation, sorting, addressing, shortening / abbreviation, and categorization. Off the top of my hand, here’s some of those possible different ways of treating human idividual names:
    • Hungarian
    • East Asian
    • Russian
    • Portuguese
    • Spanish
    • Icelandic
    • French
(and probably more). -- Tuválkin 10:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Having played around with two entries, I ran into problems with Dutch names containing a so-called tussenvoegsel like van (von in German and de/d’ in French). While it is part of a family name, it is disregarded for alphabetic sorting purposes: e.g. Category:Gijs van Aardenne is sorted manually as "Aardenne, Gijs van", but if it has to follow Wikidata, it will be auto-sorted as "Van Aardenne, Gijs" (to make things even more complicated, Belgian Dutch does sort it as "Van Aardenne, Gijs"). Please take this into account when working on the new template. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:17, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
(!) "Two people who speak the same language and have the same name will sort next to each other" trumps pretty much all of this classic list IMO. Storkk (talk) 09:37, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
  • How will the bot handle names like "William of Ockham". Sometimes it it where they were born, sometimes where they are currently living. I do not know what these types of names are called, does anyone know the technical term? Is it a toponym? I was thinking that their should be a unique field for that part of the name at Wikidata. We handle Scandinavian patronymic names with their own field. Scandinavia also used them in place of surnames, usually the farm you live on. RAN (talk) 22:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Warning! Mobile uploads are getting the wrong location![edit]

I've notified the app maintainer, but people should know--it looks like the Commons app is geotagging images with the phone's current location, not the media's geotagged location. This has been happening at least as far back as March; see VTA light rail station at Lockheed Martin Transit Center.jpg for an example. grendel|khan 20:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC) (Edit: since last October, at least.) grendel|khan 20:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I don't see how it could be otherwise. The location is added automatically from the phone location, and there is no option to change it. Regards, Yann (talk) 20:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
@Grendelkhan: It seems in these two cases that the uploaders did not include GPS coordinates in their photos' EXIF metadata, so the app assumed upload location was good enough. Would you rather it not assume that?   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 21:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I think that is a poor assumption for geotagging. That must be why we so often get 20 pictures of a city all geotagged to one hotel or cafe! - Jmabel ! talk 22:52, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Can we trust the geolocation capabilities of a phone/user combo whence a photo lacking gelocation is being uploaded? I’d say no. But in that rare case that some actually usable info comes that way, tag it in some easily spottable way, like a hidden cat. -- Tuválkin 00:27, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I always set the phone's camera app to put the geotag into the photo, so the errors merely put the location across the street or with similarly small errors. When there's no geotag in EXIF, an upload location is usually better than none, but yes, there ought to be a note that this is the upload location, not the photo location. Jim.henderson (talk) 02:16, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Jeff G.: I was the uploader in all of the cases I linked. There's some kind of bug where the geolocations show up in Google Photos, but sometimes not as EXIF data in the JPEG files I share to the Commons app. (I'll follow up on that issue separately.) This would be an annoyance if the geodata was sometimes lacking, but this is a disaster; I have to go back through all ninety-odd mobile uploads so far and manually check them. Rather than leaving a blank sometimes, the app is actively inserting bad data--an unknown number of images uploaded via mobile have been essentially randomly geotagged. (I've used the mobile uploader to upload vacation pictures from the other side of the world after getting home.) Furthermore, this could very well silently be leaking the locations of users' homes without their intent. This would be understandable as a bug; it is tremendously misguided at best as a feature. grendel|khan 07:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
@Grendelkhan: So have you confirmed that the original photos you took with your Pixel XL and Nexus 5X were correctly geotagged and that you didn't tell the app not to share the correct geotags?   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 08:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: The photos that were incorrectly located were not geotagged due to some kind of problem with my phone or Photos or something. It looks like if the EXIF data is present in the photo, the app sets the upload's location correctly, and if it's absent, the app sets the upload's location to the current location of the phone. The latter behavior is the problem; it should leave the location metadata blank in that case. grendel|khan 16:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
A further problem with the current policy: let's say someone uploads when they get home. Without their explicit consent, we are uploading the geocoords of their home. Similarly if someone deliberately omitted geocoords to keep a location confidential, and did an immediate upload, so the geocoords are correct, but were not deliberately uploaded. I think this, as it stands, is very bad policy. - Jmabel ! talk 16:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually I believe that is Oversight-able offense from the app. — regards, Revi 16:36, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
I'll ping @Misaochan: We should probably have the developer in here as well. grendel|khan 16:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi all, app maintainer here. If there is no GPS coordinates in the photos' EXIF metadata, the app should use the phone's location ONLY if TWO conditions are met: (1) the user has manually enabled "automatically get current location" in the app's Settings, and (2) the user has enabled the optional Location permission in Android. If either one of those conditions is false, the app should not be retrieving the user's current location, much less geotagging images with it. It is also worth noting that the "automatically get current location" setting should be disabled by default. Ergo, a user has to explicitly go to Settings and enable it, and then grant the app Location permissions, in order for this to happen. Could you please check and see if this is not the case for you? We will do a high-priority release to fix this otherwise. Misaochan (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
That 'automatically use current location' should come with a big warning that this will reveal your current location. While I’m not an oversighter, I think OSers often receive a request for removal of such data. — regards, Revi 16:56, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
@Misaochan: It is enabled for me--that's a relief, at least, that this isn't affecting everyone. The text under the option says 'Retrieve current location to offer category suggestions if image is not geotagged'. If this option automatically geotags untagged images with the phone's current location, it gives no indication of doing so. (Maybe the option is named something like 'use_current_location' internally, and the flavor text didn't keep up with the parameter's usage?) grendel|khan 17:10, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
grendel|khan and Revi, good point! We should certainly include a mention of the geotagging as well - indeed the text hasn't been updated to reflect that. Will push it through for the next release. Misaochan (talk) 17:27, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
@Misaochan: Thank you for the quick response! Given that the option, up until now, didn't say anything about geotagging photos, I think we should run a bot to remove location metadata from all mobile uploads which have geotags unchanged from their initial uploads and which don't contain EXIF data; in no case did a user tell the app to geotag those uploads, and the data is at best useless, at worst a privacy violation. Maybe there should be an announcement made somewhere as well? grendel|khan 17:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Given that this is pretty clearly a privacy incident of unknown scope, I've escalated it to the admin noticeboard: Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard#Ongoing_privacy_incident_involving_the_Commons_Mobile_App.. grendel|khan 23:25, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Just letting everyone know that we have released v2.7.2 to production on the Play Store with a hotfix that modifies the "automatically get current location" setting subtext to emphasize that it will reveal the user's location. As always, the setting should be disabled by default. If anyone is experiencing further issues with this, please let us know. Thanks for the report and the testing grendel|khan! Misaochan (talk) 08:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure if this is related, but I recently uploaded three pictures made shortly after oneother. I uploaded them as a group (File:De leyen bilthoven - 1.jpg, File:De leyen bilthoven - 2.jpg and File:De leyen bilthoven - 3.jpg) - which btw means that the app doesn't allow you to add a description, which is also annoying. When I checked the locations - something I or probably most people would rarely do anyway - I found the first one was correct but the second picture had been given the coordinates of the first and the third one was correct again. This really seems to be a bug in the app and not in my phone. --Joostik (talk) 19:06, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi Joostik, thanks for reporting this. It's definitely a bug with the existing multiple upload implementation (via "Share"), we hope to solve it in the 2.9 release along with the implementation of proper multiple uploads from within the app. :) Misaochan (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
FYI: I'm trying to run a sysop bot for redacting location information caused by this issue. whym (talk) 13:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
As an additional update, in our next release we intend to remove the "automatically get current location" option entirely, as we are concerned that people who enabled the "automatically get current location" setting prior to the subtext change may not realize that the subtext has changed. So please don't be alarmed if you find the option missing in v2.8 - in that version, your current location should not be retrieved at all in the upload process. Misaochan (talk) 08:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

File:Enchiridion geistlicher Gesänge 28.jpg[edit]

and maybe more or even all files in Category:Enchiridion geistlicher Gesänge. The source's title is incorrect. It's not:

Enchiridion Oder eyn Handbuchlein, eynem yetzlichen Christen fast nutzlich bey sich zuhaben, zur stetter ubung unnd trachtung geystlicher gesenge, und Psalmen, Rechtschaffen unnd kunstlich vertheutscht. 1524 [books.google.com/books?id=5Ws9AAAAcAAJ]

but:

Eyn Enchiridion oder Handbüchlein. eynem ytzlichen Christen fast nutzlich bey sich zuhaben, zur stetter ubung unnd trachtung geystlicher gesenge und Psalmen, Rechtschaffen und kunstlich verteutscht. 1524 [cf. File:Enchiridion geistlicher Gesänge 01.jpg ]

w:en:Erfurt Enchiridion explains that there are two editions... -22:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.161.16.167 (talk) 22:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

June 07[edit]

Implausible License Information[edit]

Is there any kind of process to challenge licenses provided by an uploader I deem unlikely to have the necessary rights to do so? --Abderitestatos (talk) 02:25, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

  • You could ask the user first, but it's OK to go directly to nominating for deletion. Often, it's best to do just one or two images first as test cases. - Jmabel ! talk 03:40, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
But is there no place to evaluate a license before discussing about deletion (again)? --Abderitestatos (talk) 22:34, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
@Abderitestatos: As I said, you could ask the user first. - Jmabel ! talk 23:17, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
But in this case it was not really the uploader who provided the license, he just adopted the license information given by a collection’s website, whose operators seem to put their items by default under a cc-license, even when the creator is unknown, or when copyrights obviously have expired. --Abderitestatos (talk) 13:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
The uploader is the one who is responsible to the Commons community. When you upload here, you are implicitly saying you believe the image is within Commons scope in all respects, including that it is either public domain or sufficiently freely licensed.
@Abderitestatos: If you don't think the uploader will have any particular insight, an believe they were taken in by copyfraud, as I said, it is your prerogative to head directly into the deletion process without first consulting the uploader. Of course, you could be more specific here so that there is some chance to discuss the substance of the matter. But as long as all you are saying is a generic statement that there are some files on Commons that you think have copyright problems, all anyone here can do is to give you generic advice. - Jmabel ! talk 16:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

June 11[edit]

Anti-Arpitan vandalism in Wikidata[edit]

Our Category:Arpitan/Francoprovençal is transcluding d:Q15087 to state that this minority Romance language is an «Instance of Chino mandarin» — which, I fear, is a form of xenophobic insult from some bigot’s addled perspective. Now, some questions:

  1. How can it be reverted or corrected?
  2. How can the culprit be identified?
  3. How can other such cases be detected?
  4. How can further such cases be prevented?

-- Tuválkin 23:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

  • From what I can tell, at the moment all languages are instances of Chino mandarin...someone renamed the language Wikidata item. Cookies4ever (talk) 23:39, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • It’s d:Q315, but its history page is not clear for me. Was it this diff? -- Tuválkin 23:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @SandraF (WMF): Any thoughts? -- Tuválkin 00:01, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • No, apparently Wikidata has several items for language (no clue why). In this case someone edited d:Q34770. I fixed it and the other edits by the IP seem to have been undone as well so everything should be fine again. Cookies4ever (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • It looks like some languages, e.g. French, make a distinction between language as a means of communication (langage) and language as a dialect (langue, "tongue" as in mother tongue). --HyperGaruda (talk) 02:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • More like "speech" (s.l.) v.s "language", but we digress. -- Tuválkin 07:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Wikidata uses ORES for vandalism detection. Like many other Wikidata editors, I myself have (in my volunteer capacity) many 10s of thousands of Wikidata items on my watchlist and check those daily (I think I catch and correct one instance of vandalism via my watchlist every two days on average), and I keep a watchful eye wherever I see Wikidata items integrated in our other projects and in external websites. Thanks for catching, flagging and correcting this! SandraF (WMF) (talk) 07:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @SandraF (WMF): So, this is not a bug of Wikidata, but a feature? Therefore any transclusion from Wikidata into another project (in the form of infoboxes and stuff) is a Trojan Horse for all kinds of abuse, one that needs 3 experienced users to track down and revert. Truely enlightening. -- Tuválkin 13:03, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Okay. -- Tuválkin 07:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I dunno... perhaps I was just more dense than normal, but I remember wasting over an hour trying to figure out why the Wikipedia Android app was calling someone a "moutineer" and how to change it. This is despite me being relatively familiar with Wikipedia, and a reasonably technical person. Had I not been so irritated, I would have given up much earlier. Storkk (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The Trojan Horse analogy is may be slightly over-the-top, but I think it's undeniably true that false claims that would otherwise be immediately reverted as test edits or vandalism, because they stem from a Wikidata item, can last for years. Presumably, this is because first finding the source of the error and then fixing it is such an obscure and difficult process. I still can't figure out why I was recently unable to update an image on Wikidata before deleting the old one as a duplicate. I spent about 10 minutes trying, noting that I was not blocked, the page didn't seem protected, and I could edit some things just not the image, then gave up and told a bot to do it. I would have spent less time and just washed my hands of the situation had not a huwiki article been somehow pulling the image from Wikidata, so I could not fix the huwiki article without finding and fixing the wikidata item. When things go right, it seems almost magical... when things go wrong, it feels byzantine and purposely obscurantist. Storkk (talk) 10:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

June 14[edit]

Wikimedia Commons app {Explore/Search Feature}[edit]

Hi everyone, I am a Ujjwal, contributor from Commons Android App team. As a part of my internship project, I was working on search images feature in Commons app in Phase 1 of my Internship(GSoC 2018). I am attaching a prodDebug APK for the same. Feel free to create an issue regarding any bugs or feature request that you have at our GitHub repository. APK Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1THe_I3PRixktLQcOSMMvzymLhHN6_ERq/view?usp=sharing --Ujjwalagrawal17 (talk) 10:58, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

In other words, we can now browse Commons media from the app :-) Just install the APK linked above on your Android phone and enjoy! (if you have Commons installed already, you must uninstall it first) Syced (talk) 11:05, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

SVG validation[edit]

I noticed some changes in the W3 SVG validator; a lot of files that were considerd valid in the past generate now the message "Sorry! This document cannot be checked." For example this:

--Carnby (talk) 16:27, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Seems to be a bug in the W3C validator per this error message:

Error External Checker not available Checking the Document Type of this document requires the help of an external tool which was either not enabled in this validator, or is currently unavailable. Check in the validator's system configuration that HTML5 Validator is enabled and functional.

The error encountered was: 403 Forbidden

--Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 16:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
@Carnby: Adding DOCTYPE declaration solves the problem:<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">. However it solves it partially because now the validator reports errors related to RDF – AFAIR earlier version(s) of the validator reported these issues as warnings. Anyway, I've uploaded manually fixed, valid version. --jdx Re: 07:40, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

June 16[edit]

Category:Historical agricultural equipment[edit]

@Witia: I notice this category and a complete matching set was created recently. Why is it useful? Surely everything becomes historical? Do we have a date like 2015 and events before that or images taken before that date are regarded as historical? Eddaido (talk) 01:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

And the same with Category:Historical images of ploughs. What happens when we move into the 2020s. Won't 2018 images need to be moved to historical? Eddaido (talk) 02:12, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Yes. That’s why I avoid such terms when creating new categories. Usually, cats named Category:History of Soandso however include things like Category:2018 in Soandso down to Category:1234 in Soandso, etc. A simpler way to put it is Category:Soandso by date, but simetimes there’s media to justify both categories (with Category:History of Soandso as the parent of Category:Soandso by date). -- Tuválkin 07:01, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

請求快速刪除[edit]

✓  Deleted Yann (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Kitagawa Utamaro's "Mother and Child" offering[edit]

I am not sure of the Japanese title of the image; this artist did multiple artworks on this subject. The print I have (and have scanned) is of a woman holding a red baby and a pipe and exhaling smoke. The print I had would not fit on my scanner bed and is thus done in four parts which will need to be stitched together and used to eliminate process artifacts.

Each image is a little less than 5100×7000 pixels and has significant overlap, so the final image would be a bit larger than that. To compare to a small version hosted online (actually the only copy I could find with a quick shallow search), see http://player.slideplayer.com/14/4427142/data/images/img54.png (340×504 but that site allows download of a .ppt with embedded 754×1166 version). Obviously a museum-quality scan would be best, but this would allow a filename over which such a file, if later found, could be written.

Is there any interest in this? Arlo James Barnes 20:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Yes, this would be welcome. - Jmabel ! talk 09:17, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

June 17[edit]

Moving from Commons to en:Wikipedia[edit]

Plenty of files are moved from en:Wikipedia (or other Wikipedias) to Commons. What about the reverse direction?

Most or all of the contributions by ACTVR appear to be carefully and praiseworthily edited versions of copyright material. If I'm right, they should be deleted from Commons. I've put up one for deletion, saying so. (No response yet.) For at least one of them, I can immediately see a beneficial and legitimate use at en:Wikipedia. I tried uploading it, under a different filename, to en:Wikipedia (of course with a "fair use" rationale). This turns out to be impossible (the server detects that the file is a duplicate). I've described what I did and what didn't happen at en:Wikipedia, asking for suggestions. (No response yet.) Any ideas? -- Hoary (talk) 06:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I uploaded File:Ruston_&_Hornsby_logo.png as en:File:Birmingham_Small_Arms_Company_logo1.png (under wrong name actually) without any problem. Ruslik (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
I uploaded File:MPP_logo.jpg as en:File:MPP_logo_foo_foo.jpg without any problem. The error I got when when I tried with just en:File:MPP_logo.jpg was that the filename was too short/nondescriptive, not that the file was a dup. DMacks (talk) 20:25, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Well that is odd. But thank you to both of you. ¶ I'm not so well-versed in Commons. Is demotion from Commons to a Wikipedia for reasons such as this a common occurrence; and if it is, can it be (part-) automated in some way? -- Hoary (talk) 22:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Incidentally, I've undeleted en:File:MPP_logo_foo_foo.jpg, provided it with a pile of justificatory small print, and moved the result to en:File:MPP-logo.jpg, a filename that of course is no longer or more descriptive than the one you, DMacks, had tried but failed to give it. I encountered no problem in doing this. I now have to attend to my paid job, but a few hours from now I'll do something similar for currently deleted en:File:Birmingham_Small_Arms_Company_logo1.png. -- Hoary (talk) 22:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Stating source as "Wikimedia Commons" and nothing else is a bit problematic, because en:WP:NFCC#4 requires previous publication. Previous publication is required because publishing images that have never been "out there" is super problematic in terms of fair-use. For this reason, I don't think that stating that the image was uploaded as a copyvio on Commons is enough. Finnusertop (talk) 21:59, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

June 18[edit]

File renaming dispute[edit]

Greetings, is there some kind of procedure to resolve file renaming conflicts? There is currently a disagrement on what the title of File:First Red Guards in Petrograd, fall 1917 palace square.jpg should be that is at issue. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:11, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • I've declined the request again. The uploader continues to request a name that awkwardly does not have spaces between words, and adds useless junk (the Internet Archive filename) to the end. Commons is language-agnostic (and the uploader does have a point that the rename could have kept the same language), but useful and descriptive filenames are important. Given that they refuse to discuss the request on the file talk page (the appropriate venue), I'm not terribly sympathetic. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 07:22, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • That page has a very interesting history ... Anyway, I warned the user (again). Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 08:31, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • And now the user is blocked. :/ Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 10:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Why? Unlike everybody else in this page’s history, s/he did not use the revert button recently and did not rename/move the file. -- Tuválkin 12:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Edit warring after warnings. You do not need the revert button to edit war. Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 12:31, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Ah, yes, the edit war cause for blocking. So simple to apply. As opposed to actually look at the file history and see that User:Rowanwindwhistler wants to add a historical photo to Commons and the rest (except for Magog) are just pencil pushing and doing pretend work. But carry on. -- Tuválkin 14:35, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • So you finally looked at the file history, did you? Too bad it paints a very clear picture. You should have looked before ranting. Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I did look, yes. I should have looked closely before I said this user you blocked is a p.i.a. He’s not: he’s my hero right now, for he did nothing wrong. Yet pushing down on a fellow commoner by not even allowing a redirect from his originally chosen filename is somehow more important than upholding a filename that was in use for four years. -- Tuválkin 15:23, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Pi.1415926535: I can agree that this user seems to be a p.i.a., but this user improves the project, and in this case s/he is right. Before the last renaming (which was not performed by Rowanwindwhistler, since s/he’s not even a filemover), we had this file under its original upload name and a redirect from the current filename (which lacks the IA code, fine by me but against what’s used for, say, Flikr — why?, and with English replacing the original, which is frankly filthy). Now we have the “sanitized” filename and no redirect was kept from the original filname, even though it was in use in 2010-2014. Why? -- Tuválkin 12:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Why do you think lack of spaces is a bad idea for a filename? Frankly, I can only see the opposite — how spaces in its filename can be a source of problems when reusing the file (there’s a reason spaces are replaced with underscores by MediaWiki in so many situations), especially when it’s a long filename. -- Tuválkin 11:42, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Because Tuvalkin we are humans, not computers. Anyone who thinks "File:GuardiasRojosJuntoAlPalacioDeInvierno--throughrussianre00willuoft.jpg" is better than "File:First Red Guards in Petrograd, fall 1917 palace square.jpg" should be made to use Wikipedia with a screen reader for a week. "Capital G, a, r, d, i, a, s, capital R, o, j, o, s, capital J....." CamelCase and name_underscores are developer perversions, a consequence of working around poorly written software, and indicate someone has developed bad habits. -- Colin (talk) 12:09, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@Colin: I agree with you, but for compatibility can screen reader developers provide an un camelcase option to read that as "Guardias Rojos Junto..." and an unescape option to read underscores, %20, and nonbreaking spaces as normal spaces?   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 13:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Don'tKnowButSuspectNot.IfYouReallyWantToKnow,There'sSomeoneOnWikipediaIKnowWhoUsesOne.ButItIsn'tJustThat,ItIsReadabilityByAnyone,AndTheAbilityForSoftwareToReliablyDetectWordBoundaries,OrEvenToTranslateText.ISeeTooManyTimesPeopleProposeBadPracticeBecauseTheyHaveABadSolutionToAProblem.WhyOnEarthShouldOurFileNamesBeRestrictedByTheHttpProtocol?ItMakesNoMoreSenseThanForcingUsToUse8.3FileNames.MightAsWellUseAUuidIfYouAren'tGoingToBotherToMakeTheTextReadable.IfYouHaveAHighLevelOfEnglishReadingSkills,AndAreFamiliarWithCamelCase,YouCanProbablyReadThisOk.ButIf,LikeManyOnCommons,YouStruggleWithEnglish,OrYouWereHopingToUseGoogleTranslateToReadIt,ForgetIt. -- Colin (talk) 14:20, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Colin: Filenames are not normal text. Long filenames, with or without spaces are a bad idea — and while computers can process them just fine, we human need short, clear filenames. -- Tuválkin 14:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Colin: (Edit conflict) I prefer filenames without spaces, almost every time. Curiously I have no suggestion about how to torture people who feel differently. As for the case at hand, I am sure you meant that camel case is inhuman, not that Spanish is less human than English, but you might want to clarify. -- Tuválkin 14:35, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Fortunately the vast majority of people in the world do not name their files like Tuvalkin. The language should have been maintained. But then I recall you once thought renaming files to Esperanto was a great idea, rather than stick/retain a unique identifier on your mass uploads like everyone else does. -- Colin (talk) 14:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • You misremember: Incidently, you may remember that I have contended here often, and against your opinion, that filenames should not be changed, as a principle. Therefore I would never suggest or perform a file renaming for the sake of translating its text, regardless of how more suitable another language would be instead of the one originally chosen by the uploader. The case you misremember was when we (or some of us) were trying to save the contents of Fotopedia and there was really no time to identify locations (Fotopedia liked to show contextless photos — so artistic!): Things like zeb-E-0pVFql9MM-original.jpg would make for poor Commons filenames (can we agree on that?), so I did use varying languages (among the few I have any command of) to create filenames for photos of not readily identifiable locations — such as Esperanto (which you seem to remember more than others − why’s that?) and Portuguese. In hindsight these two, e.g., would better be named in Ukrainian and in Maltese, but back then there was no time to look up translations, as Fotopedia was going down in short notice. -- Tuválkin 15:17, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Warum ist die Diskussionsseite so tiefrot? To state that it's not an English, but an international project in German. For those poor monolingual people here translated: Why is the talk page so deep red? Grüße vom Sänger ♫ (talk) 14:23, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Acho que tem muito vermelho por que não se manteve um redirecionamento do nome original, como indiquei em acima. ("Monolingual" ≠ "Germanophone". Also: threading?) -- Tuválkin 14:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • (Aĥ, vi celis la diskutpaĝon, ne la historion. Bone, do. -- Tuválkin 14:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC))
@Sänger: Some have forgotten the "discuss" portion of enwiki's BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD), sadly not available in German.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 14:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Nee, het is op de duitse WP in E-W, en in combinatie met 3M te lezen. Nicht so explizit, aber schon klar. (ne habla espagnol, je ne parlez francais, я не говарю русский язик...) And for the English: It's well established custom there as well, it's just not in one page condensed. So here is a long running naming dispute, and nobody dared to use the talk page. Grüße vom Sänger ♫ (talk) 15:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
✓  Done The original uploader now requested (using a sock, but let's ignore that) renaming this file to a sensible Spanish filename, using capitalization and spaces. I granted it. This should hopefully put this discussion to rest. Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 12:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
I will not enter into any arguments I am not interested in, but let me state a few facts, just to get the record straight here:
  • I have not evaded my account blocking and I have not created any new account.
  • I did not have any problems nor did I create any. The problem lies with the people that disregard the renaming rules, request them without proper justification (if any beyond saying "criterium X"), the users that have priviledges that do not know how to use (renaming is about applying the rules approved by the community, not about imposing one's preferences on filenames because one has the buttons to do so) and administrators that, instead of looking into the matter and ensure the community rules are applied, back previous wrong actions and block the user that is trying to have the rules respected and applied.
  • To cap it all up, I have to put up with the nice descriptions used by some users in this page and being accused of trying to evade an unfair blocking of my account.
Excellent experience. Taking into account my hundreds of hours devoted for free to the project, I will let those involved in this wonderful job sincerely apologize unless they prefer to carry on the building up of Commons on their own. If no excuses are received by the end of the week, I will let the p.i.a.'s rename each other's files ad infinitum using the own criteria while they play at blocking each other and falsely accusing each other of god knows what while saying a relieved good bye to such delightful company. Time is counting.--Rowanwindwhistler (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Imminent deletion of many high-quality educational images[edit]

Megalopta sp. (36581768563).jpg

Every so often, I batch upload images from the University of Texas at Austin's 'Insects Unlocked' project. These are high quality, have great educational value, and are often our only image of particular species.

Many - but not all - of the last batch, for example the one above, have been tagged as due for deletion on 24 June. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:31, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

You can mass convert these to a DR. As the example shows it is marked as "public domain" with the photographer's name, these should be kept as the PDM is incidental to the documented release from the original photographer. -- (talk) 11:35, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Andy Mabbett have you tried contacting the Flickr user to ask them to use the correct tag (CC0) to release their photos into the public domain. -- Colin (talk) 12:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
"Correct"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
CC0 would only be correct if the pictures were actually released using CC0. CC0 isn't the same as a simple public domain dedication. --bjh21 (talk) 12:26, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: CC0 by itself is acceptable here, PDM by itself is not. See also COM:PDM.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 13:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The Flickrstream is owned by "Insects Unlocked" who are a group. Their Website uses Flickr as their gallery: it's how they publish their work. Ideally, they would then use CC0 as their public domain dedication. CC0 is a simple public domain dedication, so I'm not sure what bjh21 is implying. But it is a statement only the original copyright holder (or authorised representative) can make. The photographers in that group all have to agree to use CC0 as their method of releasing the images into PD. It is useful for them to do that, rather publish them with the wrong Flickr tag, which is meant for other people's work that is already in the public domain. -- Colin (talk) 14:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I was referring in particular to section 3 of the CC0 legal code, and more generally to the way that CC0 is more verbose than simply "I hereby waive my copyright in [work]". But even if it were that simple, the important thing as you say is that CC0 is one specific way of achieving that effect, and we shouldn't use {{cc-zero}} on works that entered the public domain by other routes, and we don't know what mechanism Insects Unlocked uses. --bjh21 (talk) 15:10, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it does any harm for the copyright owner to make their PD declaration in as many ways as they like. -- Colin (talk) 15:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The images are clearly labeled "public domain by" (authors name) right on the image. I think that is exactly equivalent to our {{PD-Author}}, especially since I do not think there are any doubt that the people uploading the images to flicker are the authors or copyright holders. I understand that Commons community prefer CC0 over PDM and I agree with this preference, but if flicker authors mark their own images as "public domain" using PDM we should honor that and upload such images with {{PD-Author}} template. PDM just means "public domain" and it is up to us to map it to one of our PD copyright template. --Jarekt (talk) 18:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting comment.svg  Comment It is a university group and some of the people who are responsible for uploading to the flickr account likely change regularly. there is a big chance that is is mistake or/and lack of knowledge about copyright issue from the temporary uploader, it's not the first time that this happen, and it will likely happen again. First, I do not think there is any doubt that the images are compatible for us. Secondly the PD mark issue is a Commons decision mainly for to avoid the Flickr users abuses, we can decide to adapt. The suggestion made by Jarekt is the good one, I think that all the the images concerned (all the the images from this account that are not CCO and with the clear watermark "PD image by...") should be tagged by us with {{PD-Author}} and {{License review}}. And apply the same solution if it happens again in the future. I think this should be clarified a good once, because I repeat it has already happened (sorry I don't have the link) and it will certainly re-run, Jarekt is right "PD-Author" is good here. Christian Ferrer (talk) 19:22, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • {{PD-Author}} should only be used if the copyright holder has agreed to the "fallback licence" on that template, i.e., [author] grants anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. --ghouston (talk) 07:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Cemetery maps from the VA[edit]

Are these maps from the w:Veterans Administration that show the layout of national cemeteries "PD-Gov"? What do you think? RAN (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Do have an example? If they were produced by an United States Department of Veterans Affairs employee in the course of duty, they are PD. If they were bought from external providers then they're not free. De728631 (talk) 21:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Oops! Here it is: https://gravelocator.cem.va.gov/NGLMap?ID=3030960 and https://gravelocator.cem.va.gov/NGLMap?ID=3030500
Hrm, since there aren't any credits I'd like to think that these are VA works and as such are public domain. De728631 (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I concur ... Too bad the files are so small. Clearly they shrunk them down to fit on the page. I just sent them an email asking if they have them in a larger size. RAN (talk) 23:33, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Upload of a public domain image from Italian wiki[edit]

[2] I copied this into my laptop and uploaded it but its come out as if it's my work, rather than someone else's public domain effort. What should I do to give it the proper copyright licence? Thanks. Keith-264 (talk) 21:24, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I have fixed the licence tag {{PD-author|{{user at project|Edozio|Wikipedia|it}}}} and also updated the description. This map was made by Edizio at the Italian Wikipedia while Cocchia and De Palma's book is only his source. When you transfer a file from Wikipedia, please also add a section with a table that contains the original upload log, i.e. the "file history" data. This is usually required for retaining free licenses like Creative Commones or GFDL. But also for public domain data like this, it is good practice so as to document the file history. Unfortunately this is some extra work that has to be done manually because we cannot copy the source code of the upload log.
That said, why did you upload a PNG thumbnail instead of copying the original SVG file? De728631 (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I did it by guessing and trial and error; not being an Italian speaker didn't help, although after I put this question I realised that Edzio must be the author. Thanks for the support. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Tech News: 2018-25[edit]

21:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

June 19[edit]

Notification of DMCA takedown demand - Geology.com[edit]

In compliance with the provisions of the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), and at the instruction of the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel, one or more files have been deleted from Commons. Please note that this is an official action of the WMF office which should not be undone. If you have valid grounds for a counter-claim under the DMCA, please contact me. The takedown can be read here.

Affected file(s):

To discuss this DMCA takedown, please go to COM:DMCA#Geology.com Thank you! Jalexander-WMF (talk) 04:08, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

License reviewer script takeover[edit]

This section was cross posted from Commons talk:License review

For those of you that use Rillke's license review script, due to Rillke being effectively retired I have taken over the maintenance of that script. I have ported it over to User:Majora/LicenseReview.js and have added functionality for reviewing images in Category:Finna review needed and Category:Unreviewed photos of GODL-India. Eventually I will also clean up the script to remove obsolete Panoramio and add other functionality. Any other suggestions are welcome as I go through the script and see what's there is to work with. In addition, those that have the Rillke import in their personal .js file may want to update to have this added functionality. --Majora (talk) 04:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Majora: Thanks a lot! Yann (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

To make checkusers work for Commons[edit]

First, look at the graph. There were no appointments during the last two years, absolutely no. The only appointment during the last three years was INeverCry – enough said. Then let’s analyze who are the current Commons checkusers:

  1. Elcobbola – a little more than an en.Wikipedian in residence just see below.
  2. Trijnstel – a Wikimedia steward whose masterpiece of thinking is “trust my judgement, and those of my colleagues”.
  3. Krd – masterful and polite run-around replies.
  4. Magog_the_Ogre – avoids contentious cases.
  5. Jameslwoodward – the least active of all five.

Now, which problem is urgent? This one: technical data on the Iranian singer-spamming socks will soon expire, and then data on Chyah/Sonia_Sevilla/Rafic.Mufid will expire too. A future review of the case will become next to impossible. To learn how may it look, compare against en.Wikipedians – their arbitrator Alex_Shih is now trying to mitigate mistakes of their admins who convinced themselves in a false theory using their groupthink, and eventually lost all objective data – do we want a similar embarrassment for Wikimedia Commons? Moreover, here is no Arbitration Committee to make fixes after inept admins routinely.

One line on action is to promote one of Commons admins to checkusers. Possible candidates could be Yann (who once was a checkuser) or Guanaco (whose performance in the Solomon203 case should be praised, alongside other abilities). Another possibility—but only for specific cases such as this one of Chyah/Sonia_Sevilla/Rafic.Mufid—is to find a steward willing to have a positive involvement and to authorize him/her to do certain checkuser job on Commons in addition to the official Commons checkusers. Other proposals? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 08:13, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

It is sad that you felt the need to raise this thread with a list of personal criticisms, making the issue look toxic rather than an opportunity to discuss improvement. Someone who has checkuser access that uses it occasionally, or prefers to take non-contentious cases is not a failure. All that should concern others is that checkuser is used correctly and appropriately.
If you are looking for the community to engage with this improvement, perhaps you could collapse and rethink the opening paragraph, or even start all over again, and focus on how Wikimedia Commons can encourage more of the active Commons community to consider a stint working as check users. A lesson from past cases of volunteer-burnout that seem directly related to spending lots of time sock-hunting, is that it is healthy to have short periods of using the tool balanced with plenty of positive content related projects. Volunteers are far more likely to be thanked for their positive content contributions compared to the task of checkuser where one is going to have complaints and inevitably attract the attention of trolls. -- (talk) 09:10, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
+1.Incnis Mrsi: Staring this with derogatory comments won't lead you anywhere... Yann (talk) 09:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
@: indeed, I deem the check-user job very important and underestimated by the Foundation. Making less job than other people isn’t a failure (and I never blamed any admin for simply doing little job; this was quite another condition), but Wikipedian groupthink is. Volunteer burnout and a heap of complaints? Any volunteer may resign the tool and prompt the community to solve the long-standing problem of volunteer burnout in certain domains. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:52, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  1. I have not edited en.wiki substantively in approximately 8 years. As of this writing, I am the 15th most active Commons admin--number 15/255, or in the top ~94%--and have more than 4X as many edits on the Commons as en.wiki. I routinely refuse to import en.wiki issues/sanctions when there is no Commons disruption. Incnis Mrsi's linked "support" is related to a Commons issue in which Incnis Mrsi falsely labeled a Common's user as a sock with no evidence and without consulting a CU. I deleted the page with the comment "Untrue - don't make claims when you don't know what you're talking about," which no doubt bruised Incnis Mrsi's ego. Incnis Mrsi has been warned on other projects about inappropriate tagging related to CU issues, and regularly assumes bad faith when his lack of clue is pointed out to him (e.g., this was being "ridiculed" [9]). As with me, all of the attacks above appear to be related to a grudge, not a genuine concern about the state of CUs. Incnis Mrsi's comment is disingenuous piffle;
  2. There is no shortage, burnout, or CU inactivity (save Jim, temporarily, per his explicit vacation notice); most CU activity is "behind the scenes" and visible only to CUs; Incnis Mrsi, by definition, does not have a clue what he is talking about (one notices a pattern); and
  3. This is effectively forum shopping related to Commons:Requests for checkuser/Case/Chyah (the aforementioned grudge). Indeed, the comment that precipitated the post here was Krd's refusal to comment further after much pestering from Incnis Mrsi.
    Contemporaneously to the Chyah RfCU, Incnis Mrsi posted a global unblock request on Meta for Solomon203. This account had apparently been blocked for socking based on incorrect assumptions by admins (I did not research the case in detail, but it is my understanding that CUs/RfCUs were not consulted). Solomon203 has absolutely nothing to do with Chyah. The Solomon203 case merely "primed" Incnis Mrsi to disbelieve actions by "functionaries" (his word - admins, CUs, etc.) and to demand details and evidence to which he is not entitled and which we are not allowed to provide.
    • Jeff G. makes the CU request for Chyah. Again, no relationship at all to Solomon203.
    • I responded to the CU request that the accounts were stale on the Commons but that, if a fa.wiki CU had found a confirmed relationship, that CU result would be valid;
    • Incnis Mrsi enters and misreads this to mean "trust admins have been competent";
    • I advise him this is not what I said, and he responds by calling me clueless and inexperienced. I do not respond or edit the CU further;
    • Trijnstel, being a Steward and having multi-project access (i.e., not limited locally, as I am), takes up the case, and finds it confirmed based on fa.wiki CU--essentially what I'd said;
    • Because she mentioned "fa.wiki", Incnis Mrsi interprets this to mean "not relying on our own judgment and data, but instead deferring to others whom are almost certainly wrong because people were once wrong in the Solomon203 case";
    • The CU then devolves with clueless (the pattern continues) and bad faith blustering from Incnis Mrsi. Incnis Mrsi attacks Trijnstel explicitly here and on sister sites, and now all of us here because of a refusal to accept that there are privacy issues related to this case that we cannot share.
    • Frankly, I find "Please, do not refer me to trials conducted in Farsi wikis. You are a Westerner and very likely will be impartial, which is not the case for Persians" [10] to be utterly racist and wonder whether that's what underlies Incnis Mrsi's rejection of their findings. Эlcobbola talk 10:27, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
The block of Solomon203 in en.Wikipedia was a check-user block, and innuendo that “CUs/RfCUs were not consulted” doesn’t look convincing. @Elcobbola: you know that TonyBallioni reprimanded me for editing a CU-block-derived user page. As for prevalence of “burnout” as a real problem, just one thought experiment. Imagine Elcobbola to apply for sysop in the wake of all revelations above. Predictions for result? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 12:08, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Elcobbola also criticized my statements from May 26 about q:fa:Special:Contributions/Sonia Sevilla. Dammit… I said many days ago that was confused by the global rename Sonia_Sevilla ↦ Chyah not documented properly on Meta-wiki (at least, as of May, 2018). The case of Sonia has its roots in the Farsi space, and I applied some efforts to learn what happened there (alongside Alexis Jazz). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 12:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes: messing with sock tags on en.wiki is considered disruptive. Bbb23 independently found the account in question to be technically indistinguishable from the Nipponese Dog and refused to consent to lifting the CheckUser block. The account in question is still considered a sock of this LTA on en.wiki. No comment as to the commons issues being raised here. I intentionally stay out of any type of Commons governance discussion, but thought I would clarify as I was pinged. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
… and the story happened because en.Wikipedians effectively ignored SA_13_Bro and Guanaco in early November, similarly to the situation in Requests for checkuser/Case/Chyah where “our” checkusers are seemingly content with “explanations” coming from the Persian space and not interested in serious investigation of the singer spam case. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:18, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
That is because in my impression most checkusers don't consider "sock hunting" to be some kind of sports for the sake of their own amusement. Instead, they consider their role to be a necessary evil for preventing disruption. Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 10:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Digital Watermarking Image[edit]

I've a problem in maintaining with Category:Cultural heritage monuments in South Korea. This category mainly contain images to upload as Wiki Loves Monuments through 2 years in South Korea, however images were negrected to categorize into more detail. So, I'm doing it and done almost. In this working, I found images with digital watermarking to include the website advertising, maybe commercial or not. One person, user:Anne1482, uploaded them all as [11], and he/she has no contribution on Commons nor other projects except upload for WLM 2016. So I cannot expect that he/she shall change images to non-watermarking although put the Template:Watermark on his contributions such as file:부여 무량사 극락전-20101207.jpg. Here are my questions; Can we delete all of his/her contribution? If not, Can I crop the images and replace them? I need your advice. -- Jjw (talk) 11:39, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

COM:Watermark is a proposal, but may be relevant. — regards, Revi 16:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Is there any way of telling how often a Commons file has been downloaded?[edit]

It's easy enough to find out how often a Commons page has been viewed (using Pageviews Analysis in the page history). But is there any way of telling how many times or by how many people a Commons media file has been downloaded?

Downloads can be done in a number of ways of course (e.g. "Save image as ..." here or on other projects' pages, or clicking the Download icon that Commons provides). I guess there is absolutely no way of finding out the total number of times a file has been downloaded, using all possible methods. But is it at least possible to tell how many people have used the Download icon to download a file? --Andreas JN466 13:31, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know of any public methods, but afaik WMF analytics can give an estimate --Zhuyifei1999 (talk) 14:21, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata person vs. Wikidata infobox[edit]

I see that we are adding the "Wikidata infobox" template to categories that have no infobox, but is the long term plan to replace the ones that use the "Wikidata person" template with the "Wikidata infobox" template, so that we have consistent look? RAN (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): There is a discussion about that at Template_talk:Wikidata_person#Migrate_uses_to_Wikidata_Infobox?. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Structured Data on Commons - IRC Office Hour, 26 June[edit]

Greetings,

There will be an IRC Office Hour for Structured Data on Commons on Tuesday, 26 June from 18:00-19:00 UTC. More information, including time and date conversion, is available on Meta. There is not a set topic, you are welcome to bring any discussion that you would like to the office hour. I will post a short reminder before the office hour is scheduled to start. Thanks, I look forward to seeing you all there. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 18:01, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

PD-ineligible abusive posture[edit]

Recently I passed trough two deletions requests:

Both by the same issue, and both is pushing the bar a little bit far from I can see..

If we enter at Commons:Threshold of originality that Amada44 pointed (strangely by an external link), most of complex logos in USA section have one "court decision" pdf related to the logo, if we had this documents we could accept it, same as OTRS files, we can't accept files that do not have a document saying that the author license the files, they didn't show it... and this works for USA cases only. You are acting as black and white, however this is a grey subject: Intellectual property protection of typefaces

And at the same page, in the UK section we use this w:File:EDGE magazine (logo).svg as an example of what to not upload here. How now you are accepting similar files to what we said that shouldn't be here?


For me you are abusing the PD-ineligible, and this could lead to further consequences.

-- Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 22:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course most of the complex logos in the US section of a page showing examples of known PD logos have a link to the Copyright Office pdf declaring it PD. That's because of it's a page of examples of works that we know are PD. You claim that typeface copyright is grey, yet you point to a Wikipedia page that specifically says it is black letter law that typefaces aren't PD in the US.
COM:L says that Commons accepts files that are PD in the US and their source nation. These are PD in the US and their source nation is the US. I see no reason to throw out files that are perfectly fine under Commons rules and the US law that the WMF has to worry about.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

June 20[edit]

Watching trees grow[edit]

What are these?

Often temporary, some times simple single-pole structures, others with three or more and with crossbeams, usually wooden, vertical guides buried next to a freshly planted young tree or other tender-stalk plant, often tied to it with more or less slack, aiming to keep its growth vertical against bending or breaking by wind of other forces — what are these called? -- Tuválkin 01:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think they have an "official" name. Various names include tree stakes or tree supports although tree stakes seem to be the more wildly used terminology. --Majora (talk) 01:30, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Deletion request of File:Bodyhair map according to American Journal of Physical Anthropology and other sources.jpg[edit]

I asked to delete this image because it's highly inaccurate and has no source (the "source" provided by the author is not what he claimed to be). However, it was kept because it is "in use" (see here).

I don't quite understand how that's a valid reason to block deletion requests. Anyone can make up something and put it on Wikipedia (especially on a smaller one), shouldn't be a reason to keep anything. --fireattack (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

This isn't Wikipedia. An in use file is considered a valid reason for keeping. --Majora (talk) 01:48, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
To expand on that somewhat, if you can persuade editors on the Talk pages of the articles where the map is in use that it should be removed from there, you’d be in a better position. Even so, we don’t usually delete content for inaccuracy unless it’s malicious or offensive, amounting to vandalism, hoaxing, or similar. But we do have a number of file-page templates for flagging errors and other problems, like {{Inaccurate-map-disputed}}, which ought to make re-users think twice.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 02:09, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Isn't it exactly the point? This isn't Wikipedia, so why "in use (on Wikipedia)" a valid reason? --fireattack (talk) 04:28, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Because that is the policy that Commons currently has. If you wish to object to that you would need to get a community consensus to change it. Right now, that is what we have to work with. Commons does not claim whether an image is "right" or "wrong". That isn't what Commons is. If it isn't vandalistic in nature, being in use is enough. --Majora (talk) 04:32, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
What stops people to post any Commons files on Wikipedia (and therefore it would be "in use") to tactically prevent it from being deleted here then? --fireattack (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
That is for the maintainers of whatever article it is put in to decide. Again, Commons does not wade into such discussions. I've had it happen where an image was removed from an article by a vandal and then deleted over here because it was no longer in use. Obviously I had that reversed but it works both ways. In order to maintain a sense of neutrality among the different projects and Commons we just have a flat rule. In use, not vandalistic, means it is within our scope. Period. --Majora (talk) 04:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Introducing made-up information is vandalism. Faking sources is vandalism. If you do either of those things on any other Wikimedia project, you'll be reverted and blocked. This image is the work of a vandal. Being in scope because of being used does not exempt an image from deletion on copyright grounds or any other unambiguous reason, and that DR closure was wrong. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 07:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Because Commons is an image repository for Wikimedia projects. We have enough problems with people not wanting to move files to Commons lest they get deleted. Going around deleting files that Wikipedians have chosen to use for non-copyright reasons would further hurt the relations between the various Wiki projects and Commons.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:09, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

{{Fact disputed}} is your friend here. - Jmabel ! talk 15:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Below is copied from Commons:Deletion requests/File:Bodyhair map according to American Journal of Physical Anthropology and other sources.jpg. I no longer asked to remove this image here any more. But I still want to remove this image from Wikipedia articles due to its inaccuracy. Since @Tm: claimed my removal of this image from these articles on that three Wikipedias is a way to "bypass" "in use" rule, I reverted my deletion request to show that was not my intention. --fireattack (talk) 05:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I removed the copy/pasted text. Anyone can click that link. I misunderstood what you had done here and commented (now just below this comment). I also !voted delete. Please restore the deletion tag on the file page. The only reason they're "in use" is because a Commons user overrode another Wikimedian's efforts to improve other Wikimedia projects by removing the image. If the removals were done in bad faith, that would be one thing, but in this case the restoration looks to be in bad faith. — Rhododendrites talk |  22:41, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I applied local versions of en:Template:Unreliable source? to the uses in Portuguese and Persian Wikipedias.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 16:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

The problem in this case is not the policy of COM:INUSE. The problem is when a Wikimedian realizes an image is inaccurate and removes it from pages that use it, and another user -- also not active on those projects -- decides for those projects that they must display inaccurate information in order to keep the file. Leave a message on the talk pages explaining what happened. If I create a nonsense image and include it in some pages on less active Wikimedia projects and someone else notices and removes it, it doesn't matter if that person saw the image on Commons or on some other Wikimedia project. If the image is demonstrably inaccurate or misleading, the right thing to do is to improve Wikimedia projects by removing it. At that point, it is not in use. If someone makes a habit of going to other projects to remove files that are within COM:SCOPE in order to delete them, we can cross that bridge when we get to it. If someone happens to notice something does not have the educational value it purports to have, they should be commended for fixing it on other projects -- many of which are inactive or less active, so, when combined with language barriers, may not have any editor looking for the problem or aware there is one. Commons users are Wikimedians, not some outside party that mustn't touch Wikipedias. — Rhododendrites talk |  22:29, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I removed the image from the Persian Wikipedia. It was an editorial decision, and I am ready to discuss the matter there in Persian. 4nn1l2 (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Here is a similar map which is in use on the German Wikipedia: File:Weltkarte-Körperbehaarung.png. 4nn1l2 (talk) 00:24, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

But that one actually has a bunch of additional sources listed. --El Grafo (talk) 07:40, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Somewhere there was pretty clearly some trolling going on, but whether it was in the stated sources, or whether it was in the maps (I suspect, but cannot check, that the maps do not accurately reflect the sources) is probably germane. Storkk (talk) 13:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
I would suggest that it would not be against policy to rename the image with a more accurate title, and probably not against policy to phyiscally alter the original image to make it more accurate. Correct?- Themightyquill (talk) 20:32, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyright permission from multiple authors.[edit]

Given this team effort planned with full agreement of X and Y. Person X creates photos with her camera. Person Y edits the photos to make a composite and intends to submit the composite to Commons. Y can operate the upload wizard but it has no provision for permission from X. How should the permissions be handled? Thanks, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 21:18, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. That helps. The most pertinent sentence is "I created the file myself, it hasn't been previously published, and I am the sole owner of its copyright." Definitely the image has not been published previously. A question still must be asked: in the jurisdiction of Commons, can copyright of one image be held by two people? A straightforward legal question. If not, then only one person can hold a copyright. In the instance above, it can't be X because X did not create the composite. Therefore, by deduction, the copyright can only belong to Y or to nobody. For Y to have copyright, copyright on the originals used in the composite must have been given by X. Therefore: if only one person can hold a copyright, must Y submit evidence to OTRS, of surrender of copyright by X. If a copyright can belong to multiple people, then OTRS might register permission from each. That imposes administration on a system already overloaded; a simpler arrangement would be preferable. Thanks, PeterEasthope (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Commons is not a legal jurisdiction. The copyright laws of each country are what they are. Yes, copyright laws can be quite unwieldy. For example, in the U.S., if you paint a picture, put it in a frame, and I take a photo of that picture including the frame, each of us has different intellectual property rights over the resulting image, both deriving from copyright law. You have the copyright on your painting; I have the copyright on the photo of the frame: being a 3-dimensional object, there is inevitably some creativity in how I photograph it. So to publish the photo legally, someone would need licenses both for your rights to the painting and my rights to the photo. - Jmabel ! talk 02:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Basically, this is the concept of "derivative works". Similarly, if I did a sketch based on a photograph of yours, someone who wished to publish would need licenses both for your rights to the photo and my rights based on the creativity of my sketching. - Jmabel ! talk 03:00, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Categorie:Haagse Comedie[edit]

Can someone rename this to Category:Haagse Comedie? Made a typing error. Thanks. Hobbema (talk) 23:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I found how to do this. Hobbema (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Checkmark This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Jmabel ! talk 06:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

June 21[edit]

How to see the Thanks?[edit]

Hello, when I send out the "Thanks" from the history page it says that all of them are public. But for the love of everything that is evil and horrible I am unable to find them listed anywhere. ℺ Gone Postal ( ) 05:18, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

They go in the Thanks Log: [12]. --ghouston (talk) 05:21, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
I see who thanked and who got thanked, but I cannot find for what. ℺ Gone Postal ( ) 09:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't know about that. --ghouston (talk) 12:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

POTY issue - 2016 or 2017?[edit]

I attempto to create https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Picture_of_the_Year/2017/R1/Gallery/Astronomy and got "Your edit was not saved. This is not a way to contact Picture of the Year contest volunteers." message with link to https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=Commons%3APicture_of_the_Year%2F2016%2FHelp%2FPreload&editintro=Commons%3APicture_of_the_Year%2F2016%2FHelp%2FEditintro&summary=&nosummary=&prefix=&minor=&section=new&title=Commons+talk%3APicture_of_the_Year%2F2016%2FHelp&create=Click+here+to+ask+a+question&preloadtitle=Question%20from%20Steinsplitter&withCSS=MediaWiki:HelpRequest.css Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:01, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Is it really a good target? I would expect it to not lead to Commons:Picture_of_the_Year/2016/Help

Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:01, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Why wtc image takes from plane is in Commons:Picture_of_the_Year/2017/R1/Gallery/Astronomy?[edit]

File:Wtc-photo.jpg - it is neither "Astronomy" nor "satellite" nor "outer space", so why it is in Commons:Picture of the Year/2017/R1/Gallery/Astronomy - on the first position? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Fixing Geely (Q739000)[edit]

I am not sure why the entry had started with surname tag, but it certainly not remotely related to human name. But due to the historical error, the description tag of language that i unfamiliar may contaminated with "surname / family name" or their language equivalent . Would someone help me to clean it up.

Also, the entry are now properly split into Geely Holding and Geely Automobile (Q55118127) (Geely Automobile), which Geely Automobile is a subsidiary of Geely Holding, but Geely Holding is private and Geely Automobile is public ans listed. And it would be so much dig in into annual report and other primary source to actually tell which operation belong to public part of the group and which one is not, so it seem safe to assume the bigger "article" that cover the whole group was the unlisted parent holding company. Matthew hk (talk) 12:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Looks like it started when THGTTI for some unknown reason added the surname property back in 2014. Soon bots followed to add automated descriptions based on what THGTTI did. Looking at THGTTI's global contributions, they have been limited to WikiData only and spanned a period of less than two weeks. I think it is safe to assume that THGTTI was a newbie and had no idea what s/he was doing. I'll see if there are languages I can help with. --HyperGaruda (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Help categorizing photos from the Huntington theatre[edit]

Take a look at this category:

Category:Files from the Huntington Theatre Company Flickr stream not categorized by photographer‎

I've already categorized most, but there are currently 405 files left. Many need to be looked at manually. Some hints:

- Alexis Jazz ping plz 17:35, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Hold on a sec... I think I can use Flickreviewr to do part of this. I can, once the Huntington has been removed from the bad authors list.. I'll still need help for the rest though. - Alexis Jazz ping plz 17:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
That part is done, 289 files to go! Help is welcome, see instructions above. - Alexis Jazz ping plz 01:50, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Information regarding License[edit]

I am working on the quiz for Commons App to improve users knowledge on topicness/copyrights as well as the quality of images. I would love to hear community reviews on the answers. Thanks!
Questions for the quiz along with answers:

1) selfie picture
OK to upload? ✔ ✗
Selfies do not have much encyclopedic value. Please do not upload a picture of your self unless you are famous enough and already have a Wikipedia article about you.
2)picture of the Taj Mahal
OK to upload? ✔ ✗
Pictures of monuments and outside scenery is OK to upload in most countries. Please note that temporary art installations outside are often copyrighted and not OK to upload.
3)screenshot of The New York Times' mobile website
OK to upload? ✔ ✗
Screenshots of websites are considered derivatives works and subject to any copyright on the website itself. These can be used after permission from the author. Without such permission, any art you create based on their work is legally considered an unlicensed copy owned by the original author.
4)blurry picture of a not-remarkable human hand
OK to upload? ✔ ✗
One of the goals of Commons is to gather quality images. Therefore, blurry images shouldn't be uploaded. Always try to take nice pictures with good lighting.
5)picture of a Hmong wedding in traditional clothes
OK to upload? ✔ ✗
Pictures showing technology or culture are very welcome on Commons

Tanu dadu (talk) 13:31, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

@Tanu dadu:
1. "your self" should be "yourself". "The uploading of small numbers of images (e.g. of yourself) for use on a personal user page of Commons or another project is allowed as long as that user is or was an active participant on that project."
2. India: OK for 3D (architecture and sculptures), {{FoP-India}}. Would not be okay if the Taj Mahal was relocated to Iran though. Monuments (in the sense of statues) in (for example) the US or France that have not yet passed into the public domain are no good either.
The Taj Mahal was completed in 1643, so it would be OK wherever it would be located. It was created long before copyright started to exist. The quiz has to differentiate old works from new ones. Regards, Yann (talk) 00:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
@Yann: Agreed, it should differentiate. Actually parts of the Taj Mahal were restored and the garden remodelled between 1900 and 1908. Probably public domain anyway, but the point was we wouldn't allow photos of the Sydney Opera House if it was in Iran. And more importantly, several countries don't have FoP for photos of statues either. - Alexis Jazz ping plz 00:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
3. True, such things may be okay sometimes as fair use on enwiki. Would be okay if the text is not copyrighted and the mobile site contains no original design elements. (probably out of scope in that case but no copyvio)
4. "not-remarkable" should be "non-remarkable" or simply "unremarkable". The goal is to collect the best quality images. If the only picture of a human hand that we have is a blurry one, we'll have to take it. Somewhat blurry pictures of rare animals/people or things like that are welcome. (for example: w:Doria Ragland, poor picture, but it's all we've got)
5. Consider adding {{personality}}. Also (this will be a common issue for things like weddings), do not upload pictures you didn't take yourself. If you gave your camera to a relative for just one photo, do not upload that photo. Even if you have their permission! They should create their own account and upload it themselves, or (if the photo is really important/valuable) go to OTRS.
You might be interested to know (probably not really..) that (last time I checked) we had no selfie that was not from a new user with no other uploads (Cool. Copyright/personality rights are a bit vague when unexperienced users upload selfies, I prefer not to use them), taken at a regular angle (oh hi), clearly is a selfie (can't be seen clearly on File:AnnaStevenson2018.jpg), using a decent phone or camera (you need a new camera) and with a background that would be at least somewhat interesting. (your ceiling is awesome) Just a "standard selfie". Try finding it in Category:Selfies. I don't think we have it. It's possible we did have it at some point but it was deleted as an "unused personal picture". - Alexis Jazz ping plz 00:01, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
@Alexis Jazz: not sure what you do or don't consider a selfie (does it have to be taken with a cell phone, or can it be a DSLR? Is it OK to use a mirror?) I've got two decent self-portraits in Category:Joe Mabel, but one is with a point-and-shoot and a reflective surface (a napkin-holder, as it happens) and the other with a DSLR and a mirror. - Jmabel ! talk 03:11, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
@Jmabel: DSLR is fine. (if you can hold it with your arm stretched out..) Some examples of what I mean:
Also see Category:Selfies with arm visibly stretched out. Few represent the "typical" selfie. (without being from a new user) I just mean what you would think of when you hear the word "selfie". You wouldn't think celebrity, you wouldn't think diagonal, you wouldn't think ceiling, you wouldn't think group selfie, you would think of seeing one arm stretched out and the person looking at the camera. File:DICKSON T J.jpg would have been all that - except it's diagonal. - Alexis Jazz ping plz 10:42, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
So no mirrors. - Jmabel ! talk 15:31, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
@Jmabel: for a typical mirror selfie I would expect a phone to be used. But we don't have this either! Category:Self-portrait photographs with mirror doesn't seem to have it. Actually it does, but she's not wearing anything. (NSFW obviously) - Alexis Jazz ping plz 02:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
  • "…already have a Wikipedia article about you" is a high threshold. We'd want photos of pretty much any faculty of an accredited college or university, member of a legislature, leader of pretty much any unit of a political party above the precinct level, head of an organization about which we have an article, member of a band about which we have an article (unless it's something like an 88-piece marching band!), etc. Selfies don't tend to be the best, but they are better than nothing. - Jmabel ! talk 03:17, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Maybe not the commentary you are looking for, but I would like to congratulate you on your choice of "unremarkable human hand" as a tasteful but functional stand-in for the other human body part that we actually have way too many blurry/unremarkable photos of. =) - Themightyquill (talk) 20:38, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

June 22[edit]

Category mess[edit]

I have noticed that around the 23th of March at least user Joshbaumgartner has created lots and lots of pages with missing (red) categories, such as Category:White number 1 on green discs and Category:Colorful number 16 on colorful objects, as well as empty categories such as Category:Number 178 on white rectangles (!) and pages such as this one. Can somebody please correct this or put an end to this before we end up with thousands of pages like these, because this is becoming a mess, if you ask me. Or is this considered 'normal'? - ErikvanB (talk) 12:49, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

  • @Joshbaumgartner: Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  • It is normal, helpful, and welcome. «Putting an end to» it would be vandalism. -- Tuválkin 15:09, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The red categories are due to some changes made while developing the templates used with these categories. They are not optimal, but it is taking time to fix them of course. Going forward, new categories or applications of the templates should not be left with missing categories, so the problem should not grow, it is just a matter of going through and filling in the missing steps on those that currently have red ones. Josh (talk) 17:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Template i18n[edit]

Template {{RomanCat}} includes, hardcoded, the English phrase "Roman numerals". I wanted to internationalize it using {{autotranslate}}, but it did not went well. I created the following:

Can anyone succeed where I failed miserably? -- Tuválkin 20:11, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

[edit]

The logo for en:Scopus, marked as non-free content at en:File:Logo for Scopus.jpg, looks to me as though it might be in the public domain under U.S. law, as it is just the typeset word "Scopus" with a registered trademark symbol. Is this (or preferably, a higher-resolution version of the same thing) eligible for inclusion in Commons? -- The Anome (talk) 23:20, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

That should be below COM:TOO in any jurisdiction since it's just plain text without any original, creative elements. It could be uploaded here with {{subst:tmlogo}}. clpo13(talk) 02:31, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

June 23[edit]